Podcasting has been around for 20 years, but it has been in the last 10 years where there have been a number of platforms, series, and networks that everyone talks about. Whether you’re into True Crime, Reality, Business, TV Commentary, etc there is a genre there to suit your interests. In the last 6 or so years, we came across Lindsay Graham who’s shows forcus on historial, business, and variations of True Crime as it pertains to history and/or business.
For years, we have heard his voice as he talks about various times in history and businesses that we engage with. We sat down with him to talk about his array of successful series, the final episodes of Business Movers, his production company Airship, how he came to his partnership with Wondery and his thoughts on podcasting as an industry that continues to eovolve.
ATHLEISURE MAG: It’s definitely a pinch me moment as we have enjoyed listening to your and your portfolio of podcasts for years!
We can’t remember which podcasts we started listening to that you created, but we think it was American Scandal with its first season which focused on BALCO. We tend to listen to shows that focus on True Crime and business so the intersectionality of those verticals is what drew us into that season and ultimately enjoying the other ones as well.
Before we start to delve into your podcasts. What is your background and how did you get into the podcast industry?
LINDSAY GRAHAM: It was by total accident! I have no business doing what I am doing right now. By education, I have an MBA in Marketing right?
AM: Right!
LG: So that is what I was doing for most of my working life really. I worked in non-profit marketing and I also worked in an insurance company. It was at that insurance company when I got fired and that was fine because I didn’t like them either. But as you can tell, you notice the guitars over my shoulder here, I have always been interested in music and in audio. I guess my dream job would have been Record Producer.
So, I have this little studio that I am still in. I thought after this moment of losing my job, I went to my wife and said, why don’t I try and do something with my life that I actually enjoy? So I tried. I cofounded a little audiobook company based out of Dallas here.
We put out a lot of audiobooks, but along the way that caught the attention of Hernan Lopez who was the Founder and CEO of a very young company called Wondery at the time.
One of the best decisions that I ever made in my life was that because it was a fictional show and because we were ad sponsored, we didn’t have a host. Most podcast ads are host read ads. So I decided to be the host! I figured that I would put my marketing degree to work. Well Hernan just really enjoyed how I wrote and read my ads. Then even though I gave up that audiobook company and crawled back to the world of Marketing, Hernan called me up and said, “hey, I’ve got this problem. We have a brand new podcast coming out and it’s hosted by a journalist who can’t do personal endorsements – would you do it? It’s called Dirty John.” In the same phone call, he also asked if I was a history buff and would I want to host and sound design a new concept for a show there that they were calling American History Tellers. I like to joke that these are not questions that you want to say no to! You say yes to all of them!
AM: Exactly.
LG: So I did! All of a sudden, I was a podcaster, but I was a part-time podcaster. There was no way that I was going to suddenly quit my job again and go back to this fantasy world of being in audio. So for a long time, I did History Tellers part-time on nights and weekends and it was rough with a full-time job, and a young daughter at home. But it was really rewarding and I was actually making more money then I was at my day job. So I said, “I’m not going to quit for 1 podcast. But what if I had 2? Because then I can distribute the risk and it’s a portfolio of revenue. So I went back to Wondery and I said that I had an idea for American Scandal. It’s very much so the formula of American History Tellers show but leans into the True Crimeish, but not so True Crime. They bought the rights to that show – I really wish that I didn’t sell all of it because who knows and who knew how successful it would be? But what I did was secure my place in podcasting. I had 2 successful chart topping shows with a young network on the make and I got to quit the day job to become a full-time podcaster.
Yeah, I’m here by accident sort of, but you take the reigns at some point.
AM: Your podcasts have gotten us through running around the city, heading to events, coming from showrooms, heading to set, navigating layouts for when the issue is about to drop and more! We started listening in 2018/2019, so for a period of time we were able to just go from one season to the next in a number of series. The sound production is just incredible. As a Telecom major with a focus in production, my ears are always enjoying the audio quality in each episode.
LG: Thank you! We put a lot of effort into it and I guess that is the audio background coming to the fore right?
AM: Exactly.
What are the kinds of stories that you are drawn to when you are coming up with the different podcasts? Are there subjects that you naturally lean towards?
LG: Yeah. At this point, these shows are run by talented and sort of medium sized teams. So, I don’t even know some of the topics that are being worked on until they are really far down the pike. But in the beginning when it was a smaller endeavor and we were all working together to try to figure this thing out, the thing that was most helpful was to try to find the central question of the rubric that this show is centered around. What is the kernel? For American History Tellers, we put you in the shoes of everyday ordinary people as history is being made. That’s kind of what we are trying to do. We try to stay out of the Halls of Power as much as we can. It’s not all Oval Office and Congressional floor. We really do try to put you at the kitchen table of when these things are happening. So that’s what makes that show special and when we started, it was a good question – what do we start with? What should be our debut topic? This was early on in the first Trump administration. If you remember, there were these weird sabor rattling moments with North Korea and Putin. I thought that we should remind the American public about the Cold War and how terrifying it was for a lot of people especially us Gen Xers who had to hide under our desks or whatever to some how avoid a nuclear apocalypse – that was going to protect us.
AM: They were thick tables!
LG: Oh yeah!
But it was always how did this affect the average American at that time and how does that reverberate now?
American Scandal was actually pretty similar although this one is very POV centered show. We follow certain characters and we try to anchor it in their perspective. It always comes down to and I think this is why it is such a character driven show because that is what we try to bring to that show.
All of my shows have some sort of center or central question to them that we use as sort of a touchstone to remind us of how we are telling the story.
AM: Where do you start creatively whether it’s a new season or an entirely new podcast series. What do you do when you may have such wide lanes?
LG: There are editorial discussions and marketing considerations like Oct is around the corner, do we have a spooky story? We’re in the media business so we try to do our best with calendarization and things like that.
How do we tell is to our audience in a manner that adds value to someone who may know a lot about it and is also unique to us and I think that that is how we go about it. We get so many suggestions from our listeners, our writers, and our researchers, and they don’t just quite fit.
AM: Tell us about Airship. How did it start and what are all the podcasts and projects that are involved in this company.
LG: So Airship is my production company that I founded really to just house my increasing podcast activities right? So it started with American History Tellers, then once American Scandal came along, then American Elections Wicked Game, then 1865, then History Daily, and so I knew that I needed a structure.
It’s a small podcast production company. We do our best to keep our output up with our resources lean. At our height, we were putting out 11 episodes a week for my shows and other shows. We kind of specialize in the history niche and we have recently taken over the entire turnkey process of American Scandal so that now includes scripting, that was something that previously Wondery did. So yeah, it’s just a little company that could.
AM: Do you guys have from an American Scandal perspective, do you guys have a soundboard so that people can give feedback? How does that work from thinking about a topic and making it an actual season?
LG: Yes, I have a critical employee, my Chief of Content, William Simpson, he actually works in the UK. A lot of that gets filtered to him first. So, all of the ideas will go into some document and we’ll get some form of vetting together. It does require some fair amount of effort to see which of these stories has the legs. We’re not in the enviable position to do any original reporting – we’re not diving into the archives with a weekly show or 4 or 5 weekly shows – how could you?
We need to rely on the existing reporting and the existing sources and that still requires a lot of effort to find out what’s out there and to validate it as well as we take truth telling very seriously. We want to make sure that the story can be told without bias. But then there are considerations of how we can tell the story that is unique to us. I have writers, a bunch of freelance writers, I have freelance showrunners and producers, I have my Chief of Content, I’m involved all of the time – it will all go through it’s filtering and funneling process and then we will come up with ideas.
AM: I love History Tellers and I also love History Daily. I’m always amazes about some item or event that happened on this day that I didn’t know about. How do you decide that? There doesn’t seem to be overlap and there is a new fact to uncover and listen to for that day.
LG: Well the good thing about history is that it is pretty old! There has been a lot of days. Even though that is true, I will back up and say that since you have listened to it, you realize that there is a recency bias. There’s a lot more 20th century stuff than there is 19th century stuff and that is again because of sourcing and other things. We don’t know what really happened in 4500BC – no one was writing it down, but I’m sure it was interesting. The point remains that so much was happening that we have the entire globe to cover! This isn’t American History Daily, it’s History Daily. We don’t choose days like this person was born or this person died. Those aren’t actually interesting days that’s just kind of an anniversary of something – it’s what that person did in their life that’s important. So we have all sorts of options. We get to find a date, anchor an episode around that date, but also storytell from both sides of that date. We’re not just a page a day kind of calendar that gives you a sentence or 2 on what happened.
AM: We’re bummed that Business Movers will end at the end of this month. It was really a series that we have enjoyed listening to as it is in that vein of The Men Who Built America on History Channel and those kinds of docuseries are always fascinating and it’s great to be able to deep dive into those companies and industries. How did that podcast come about and what do you want the legacy to be for that particular series?
LG: To tell you how these things get decided, their Sales team said that they were selling the crap from their business program ming. “Does Lindsay have any interest in a business show?” I thought it was perfect because I have a business degree as I’m a history podcaster with a business degree so the ingredients for that show started pulling together. Talking about the rubic or the central kernel of that show, that one has always been as I have articulated – there is a Character, a Crisis, and a Business Concept. In every episode, we will explore those 3 things. This character dealing with this crisis as it relates to this business concept. We’re not explicit about that, like we’re talking about inventory management or inflationary pressures or whatever the business concept is. Hopefully you pick it up and under every single episode, it is there. Can I just tell you that I had some of the most fun in that show because the personalities are so big, so dynamic, and they are consequential in our everyday lives. There is not a company that we covered that you don’t have some sort of personal relationship with whether it’s Disney, or Pepsi, or Microsoft. Even the ones that you think didn’t touch your lives, you would be captured by their journey as well. It was a fun show and I really enjoyed it. I am sad that it reached its end.
AM: We saw it on your LinkedIn when you announced it and that’s what made us reach out after being long time listeners! We listen to it to as there are so many nuggets to learn and apply it to things that we are working on or how we engage with other businesses. A number of those businesses have been those that we have worked or partnered with and it was great to hear things that we may not have known about their backstory or event looking ahead to where they planned to go. It was an enjoyable and invaluable podcast that will be missed for sure.
LG: Thank you very much, that is exactly the reaction that I would hope for from my listeners. That it is entertaining, but also surprisingly useful resource.
AM: 1865, we don’t know how we found out about it, it could have been a cross promotional episode that was somewhere else or an ad but it was enthralling to listen to, the sound, the voices – super immersive! How did this come about and what was your involvement in it?
LG: That came on the heels of the very first podcast of the fictionalized presidential elections so a friend of mine who was living in LA and he’san actor and writer and was trying to make things work, he had a play about 1865. It focused a little more on John Wilks Booth, but he had an idea for an adaptation and was pitching it around Hollywood to try and get a TV series. He heard Terms which was the audio drama that I made, and said why don’t we make an audio drama around this subject. It worked perfectly as I was already making a brand around history podcasts so we decided to partner on that and he is the Co-Creator and Head Writer of that show and I am the Co-Executive Producer as well as I composed all the music and did the sound design of that show as well.
AM: It was incredible to listen to and an audible delight.
LG: Well thank you again! Audible delight – I like it! Well it was a real labor of love. It tells a very important story that starts with the assassination of Abraham Lincoln and the immediate first days of Reconstruction and how difficult this period will be without Lincoln around. It is semi-dramatized, but everything that is said in there is true.
AM: Are there upcoming podcasts that you are able to share to keep an eye out? There are probably 5 names whether it’s the host or a production company but when I see them pop into my feed or I’m aware of a project that is coming up from them I follow immediately because if I hear your name or Airship I know it will be something I will enjoy from an audio perspective as well as the subject that is being presented.
LG: Probably not -
AM: That’s what we thought you would say.
LG: Nothing is fully greenlit at this point. The uncertainty at Wondery has certainly made it difficult to announce or do anything for sure right now. The changing nature of the podcast industry has also altered how I view my work. So, I don’t know. It’s not even a matter of us vetting it with legal yet. It’s a little uncertain right now. However, I will guarantee that there will be more stuff from me and my partners in the next 12-18 months.
AM: That’s great!
Just as you said, the podcasting landscape – I mean this industry has been around for quite some time. There are many people that feel that they can just jump in and make a podcast and that is debatable. But for those who do want to embark in this area, what are some tips that you have regardless of their genre – what are things that they should be thinking of?
LG: The barrier to entry to not just podcasting but to a bunch of New Media – short form video, or you could sign up for Substack right now and have a paid newsletter. All of it remains the same I think. There are tactics for hooking people or marketing to them and extracting economic value from their audience and I think that the only way to do that is in a world of increasing authenticity is to be yourself or to do what you do. You may not know what you do, and that is a hard question to answer and I don’t know if I have the fullest idea of what I do. No one is going to have a career if they approximate viral moments or they just start replicating other success. If you think back in every piece of media that is hailed as something worthwhile or is a watershed piece, it has no resemblance to what came before it, it broke the mold, it changed things, or twisted things or was so outrageously original that is forced itself into the world. I’m not saying that you have to be so violently original, but you do have to be authentic. In a moment where we are all reckoning with AI and it’s very slippery and seductive inauthenticity. I think that we will more and more be drawn to these small and obviously human moments.
AM: 100%.
Do you have any podcasts that you enjoy listening to?
LG: Here’s the secret!
AM: We know where this is going, but we just wanted to hear it directly from you ha!
LG: Once you make podcasts and enough podcasts for 8-10 hours a day, I drive home with the radio off. I really appreciate just the silence of driving home. That doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy podcasts, I’m just not the inveterate consumer that you might think that I am.
You know, I once visited a very famous celebrity chef at his home and his refrigerator was filled with champagne and an expired tin of caviar and nothing else!
AM: Yup!
LG: I think that there is a certain bit of the cobbler’s kids (Editor’s Note: this is a Spanish proverb that means that someone with a specific skill is often so busy assisting others that their own affairs go unattended) here. But Revisionist History is always one that I enjoy. Malcolm Gladwell has an amazing, quirky, and impish way of looking at the world and I just find him captivating. Even if he is wrong about his big point or is demonstratively apprehensive of the facts, it still is really entertaining and thought provoking.
A recent winner in the history podcast universe has been The Rest is History out of the UK. They have hit upon a formula that their parent company has been replicating quite a bit. They came out with The Rest is History and then all of a sudden, there is The Rest is Politics, The Rest is Politics: US, The Rest is Football, The Rest is Entertainment and the formula works! But it is rooted in 2 people who authentically enjoy each other and authentically know what they are talking about even if they just researched it and they are able to bring their own expertise to it. It’s not a new formula of 2 people talking about a subject, that is as old as podcasting. There is something where there is a chemistry between these 2 hosts and the way that they tackle topics is persistently interesting.
AM: Are there subjects that you have yet to tackle that you would love to see in a podcast where it’s a series or just an episode?
LG: I’m sure there are! I mean yes absolutely. I have a document hidden somewhere in the cloud of every single one of these ideas. Just at this moment, I can’t think of any of them!
There is 1 story that I am dying to tell and I do hope that I get to tell it and I want to do it in a live show setting. There was a man named Danny Faulkner that lived here in Dallas. Presumably, he was an illiterate house painter. But he started finding wealth and success in real estate deals and building condos. This is in the mid 80s and all of a sudden, everyone was buying, building, and swapping these condos. A lot of people were getting rich and it’s not surprising that is becomes an entire house of cards and a big Ponzi scheme – trading amongst each other, bidding the price way up there and then selling it to a rube! But, this illiterate house painter was the ring leader of it all and he crashed a bank! He pretty much started the real estate depression of the 1980s and it had a great affect on my family because my father was a home builder and all of a sudden, we had to move out of our house and find a new place.
It’s one of those stories that would be really good for American Scandal because it is very character forward, but it is pretty small and pretty localized, and is not international, but it meant a lot to a lot of people and it has a personal connection to me and that is why I want to do it in a live show setting where I can drive the personal connection!
AM: Wow!
When you were talking about it it sounded like something out of Texas Monthly.
When you’re not working on your podcasts, what do you like doing in your personal time?
LG: I just yesterday saw a clip from the comedian Jimmy Carr, and he was asked, what are your hobbies. He gave this response, “I’m lucky that my work is more fun than anything else than I can think of.”
AM: We have said that on a number of occasions.
LG: That’s kind of, sort of true for me. Of course, I have enough of it, I drive home in silence, I get to come home and spend time with my young daughter who is 11 and my wife. I play guitar. I love to cook. If there is ever a guitar playing cook podcast, I would be ready!
AM: That’s a nice little intersection there.
LG: I live a fairly quiet – well you know what? I’ll tell you this! For the last 7 or 8 weeks, I’ve been taking improv classes!
AM: What, oh wow!
LG: Yeah! Way back in the day, I used to run the tech, sounds, lights, and used to play music for an improv troop. I never got on the stage myself. I enjoyed it then and then I grew up. But recently I thought, I need to for my own benefit grow, step outside of myself, and to be silly! This is terrifying to me to get up on the stage and be silly and put on a voice or to move my body in an odd or awkward way! I don’t dance like no one is watching – that doesn’t make sense to me and I’m not going to dance at all! So I figured that I’m too locked up. So I have been taking this improv class and I have really been enjoying it and I signed up for level 2.
AM: Wow and is the goal to maybe have a small group of family and friends to watch the joys of what you have learned?
LG: No. That’s not the goal. I have enough things that my family and friends can consume if they want to hear what I’m doing. The improv is really just for me and I might get comfortable enough to enjoy it as well from a performance aspect. But it is really a brand new and very rewarding way of thinking.
PHOTOGRAPHY COURTESY | Lindsay Graham
Read the AUG ISSUE #116 of Athleisure Mag and see SOUND MEETS STORY | Lindsay Graham in mag.
